tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post6795078995807507894..comments2023-03-24T05:31:44.211-05:00Comments on Northern Lights: "Obama Care" OpposedNorthern Lightshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16896871171346559975noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-79384361176052938032009-12-28T02:18:31.628-06:002009-12-28T02:18:31.628-06:00Dan,
I agree with your advocacy of a biblical vs....Dan,<br /><br />I agree with your advocacy of a biblical vs. political agenda. Not only the right thing to do, but more likely to be effective, since based on truth.<br /><br />I like theft and debt as biblical perspectives.<br /><br />On theft: Not only is theft wrong (whether or not you define all taxation / 'execessive' taxation / 'unjustified' taxation as theft), but God loves a cheerful giver [2 Co 9:7].<br /><br />Involuntary / coerced redistribution is theft - morally, if not legally. True, God is pleased when higher performers redistribute to those who are (legitimately) disadvantaged. But 'all' redistribution should be voluntary.<br /><br />Biblically, the church (not the state) should meet the needs of society. While we should be realistic in recognizing that the church (due to the imperfection of the human heart) has not been perfect in meeting the needs... even if the church isn't meeting the needs, God loves a cheerful giver. He doesn't want a coerced giver. Just like he doesn't force us to love him - wouldn't be true love. And, ultimately, his supernatural reason for giving is to disciple the heart of the giver, not meet the needs of the recipient. He can flick his finger and meet the needs - he's not agonizing over our giving to meet the needs.<br /><br />DavidUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14401572524070796088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-7458264555487461852009-11-02T22:41:41.552-06:002009-11-02T22:41:41.552-06:00Ok, so you indeed meant to condemn all taxation as...Ok, so you indeed meant to condemn all taxation as immoral (I didn't catch this from the original post). This being the case, you were always being perfectly precise in your choice of the word "rob". I certainly did not intend to create a paper tiger, so thanks for your patience with me.<br /><br />I agree with Isaac in that I don't think scripture condemns all taxation.christina hallnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-70216867237598680672009-10-03T00:52:51.010-05:002009-10-03T00:52:51.010-05:00I think most people understand "rob" to ...I think most people understand "rob" to mean unjustly taking something that does not belong to you. So in the mind of your readers you would seem to condemn taxation. Perhaps be more careful while choosing words in the future?christina hallnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-74724723655048790782009-09-29T23:35:56.239-05:002009-09-29T23:35:56.239-05:00All the points mentioned aren't just political...All the points mentioned aren't just political i.e socialism, abortion funding, debt but are undergirded by a biblical worldview as this article points out. So, even though you started out contentious i.e. we should look at this biblically instead of or as well as politically, what it should have been is, "We have looked at this politically and this is the biblical basis of those politics." In other words, agreement instead of contest.Ted Sandsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-36741052138460966602009-09-28T19:48:31.203-05:002009-09-28T19:48:31.203-05:00Dan, I definitely agree with you that our governme...Dan, I definitely agree with you that our government has too much taxation and redistribution of wealth. It's unfair to the people who work hard for their earnings. However, in your article you said you were going for biblical reasons to oppose Obama's plan. Abortion and debt are absolutely biblically addressed issues, and you covered them nicely, but I'm not aware of many passages that address overtaxation and condemn the government for redistributing wealth to the poor. Maybe there are some, but I don't remember any. You mentioned Exodus 20, but if you apply that verse to taxation you could say that every government is being immoral due to taxes, even if they tax everyone equally and not disproportionately. They are taking money away, so they are stealing. So is all taxation immoral? Isn't very basic taxation necessary (i.e. for roads, the military, etc.)? I think the amount of taxing our government gives its citizens is both wrong and impractical, but I don't know where the issue is specifically addressed in the Bible.Isaac Alzennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-66799641308783605972009-09-28T15:26:52.181-05:002009-09-28T15:26:52.181-05:00Great article Dan. You are right in defining it as...Great article Dan. You are right in defining it as robbery too. The government is stealing from future generations. <br /><br />Keep up the good work.<br /><br />BrianAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-12291467504956351272009-09-28T08:49:48.331-05:002009-09-28T08:49:48.331-05:00Good points Dan and you're remembering that yo...Good points Dan and you're remembering that you are a Christian first/pilgrim/stranger, American second. <br />I believe we must remember the overriding issue...<br /><br />"Though shalt not murder" might be a the only reason to hang your opposition to Obama(non)care.<br /><br />Abortion alone is enough, but there are learned men who have examined the healthcare proposal and adamantly believe that this proposal will lead to a selective euthanasia of the old and disabled by putting the power of who and who will not die in the hands of men. The history of communism would probably verify that it gives the power of the government to do such evil deeds. Rationing healthcare by the government will necessitate such ends, as it is evident that this country IS bankrupt.<br /><br />Christians do not need any other biblical reason, which makes robbery a mute point by comparison.Mrs. Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03464578882509860784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-20556098708168736432009-09-26T17:18:48.227-05:002009-09-26T17:18:48.227-05:00In response:
Without going into how certain taxes...In response: <br />Without going into how certain taxes are illegal, I'll leave it at the following: Of course we are not being forced to "render unto Caesar" by an unlawful force. It's perfectly legal for our government. They are the ones who make and decide when to enforce the laws. I digress, because the purpose of the blog wasn't to discuss the illegality of taxation.<br /><br /><br />When using the word "rob" the denotative definition offered by Christina doesn't exactly fit the context in which I was writing. I was going for more of a connotative term like: "rob" <br />-"to take what is not yours."<br />Without getting too technical, this is what the government would essentially be doing...taking something from a certain class and giving it to another. I am not encouraging people to not pay taxes ("give unto Caesar..." No doubt some of Caesar's taxes were robbery) Are all taxes robbery then? Probably. That doesn't mean we shouldn't pay them. However, since they are a form of robbery, I think we should oppose them - <br />and this plan of thievery so more robbery doesn't occur when it's law.Northern Lightshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16896871171346559975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-68146977258410516582009-09-25T23:29:26.383-05:002009-09-25T23:29:26.383-05:00About the taxes again, people were taxed pretty he...About the taxes again, people were taxed pretty heavily by Ceaser, but Jesus still said "Give unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's." Jesus didn't really imply that Ceaser was robbing the people. Obviously, from an economic standpoint, there are many reasons to oppose heavy taxation. But I don't know if it's a moral issue of thievery.<br /><br />Twins all the way! (Best case scenario, we make the playoffs and get swept by the Yankees, but hey, miracles happen)Isaac Alzennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-50388689856477177962009-09-25T21:54:40.618-05:002009-09-25T21:54:40.618-05:00One more thing......Go Twins!!!One more thing......<b>Go Twins!!!</b>Tylerynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-20719903083617382992009-09-25T21:53:45.687-05:002009-09-25T21:53:45.687-05:00Good points!
Way to look at this issue from a Bib...Good points!<br /><br />Way to look at this issue from a Biblical perspective! Indeed, how easy it is to be caught up in the political fray...especially when you are listening to Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, etc. ;)<br /><br />Christina:<br /><br />Good point about the word robbing. However, I don't think that Dan was claiming that force is being used in the collection of taxes. Nor do I think that he was saying that we have a "right" to be an untaxed people. (If he was, that might be a future post! ;))<br /><br />Speaking of Romans 13, I noticed something fairly interesting...<br /><br /><i>Romans 13:1-6<br /><br />1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.<br /><br />2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. <br /><br />3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: <br /><br />4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.<br /><br />5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. <br /><br />6 <b>For for this cause pay ye tribute</b> also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.</i><br /><br />Hmmmmmm...while the government isn't "robbing" folks through "disproportionate taxation" (thanks Isaac ;)), the beginning of verse 5 seems to indicate the reason concerning the levying of taxes.<br /><br />First, government has been but in place by God to "bear not the sword in vain." They are to protect the citizens and "terrorize evil." <b>Not</b> the funding of abortion. <b>Not</b> putting future generations in debt over a ridiculous health care program. The list goes on...<br /><br />Christina, you ask when taxation becomes stealing. I don't think a $ figure would be appropriate. However, I think it is quite obvious that government can "abuse" its authority when it comes to taxes. (We are seeing it now with these cattywompus government programs.)<br /><br />Well, enough of my ramblings. <br /><br />Food for thought.<br /><br />Thanks Dan!Tylerynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-63841772587902099102009-09-25T12:43:26.630-05:002009-09-25T12:43:26.630-05:00Yeah, I think the issue of taxing the rich is more...Yeah, I think the issue of taxing the rich is more of a socialism vs. capitalism issue than it is a matter of robbery. Even though it might not be fair (and bad for the economy), I don't believe disproportionate taxation is stealing.Isaac Alzennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-43789677899450905832009-09-25T00:37:52.698-05:002009-09-25T00:37:52.698-05:00Glad to read another "Northern Lights" p...Glad to read another "Northern Lights" post! I love the picture at the top (that's new, isn't it?).<br /><br />Dan, your points in this post are generally solid and clear, but I am confused over your argument that ObamaCare is stealing.<br /><br />You say: "Obama Care” would raise taxes on small businesses and wealthier individuals. Believe it or not, “Robbing from the rich is still robbing.” Therefore we Christians oppose “Obama Care” because it robs/steals from a certain class, which is wrong and evil.<br /><br />I say: please let me define "rob" for my own sake so I can think through this clearly. :) ...<br /><br />...OK, to rob is 1. "to take something from (someone) by unlawful force or threat of violence; to steal" or 2. "to deprive (someone) of some right or something legally due"<br /><br />If you were using rob in the first sense, it seems you would judge inaccurately. To my knowledge, we are not being forced to "render unto Ceasar" by any unlawful force, and we are still allowed to leave this country of ours (along with the ruler we voted in) if we decide too much is being asked of us.<br /><br />If you meant rob in the second sense, I am confused. The Bible does not condemn the levying of taxes (Matt 22:21). I didn't know we had a "right" to be an untaxed people...for I don't understand how you are determining when the taxation (an action not fundamentally immoral) becomes stealing. Can you actually put a $$ amount on a tax that would be lawful, and one that would be stealing? Would 1% more or less tax actually change the moral nature of the act (I hope it is clear I am addressing just the raw act of taxation)?<br /><br />Alright, that's all. Hope I've made some sense at 12:30 in the morning. :) BTW, another way to combat government-run health-care Biblically would be to argue that health care has not been allotted by God to the sphere of the state (Romans 13).christina hallnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2903755212733022684.post-2281726492326971132009-09-24T21:52:26.401-05:002009-09-24T21:52:26.401-05:00Karl Marx would have a bone to pick with you, Dani...Karl Marx would have a bone to pick with you, Daniel! - But I certainly don't.<br /><br />Federally funded abortion is about as wrong as it gets. But an aside on this: what about state-funded abortion? It's just as wrong, but it happens in a number of states in the country today. Is there some a particular project devoted to ending that evil?<br /><br />Anyway, interesting thoughts as always, but it's bed time for this blogger.Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14087784030339510660noreply@blogger.com